Thoughts on the unreleased 0.50 update

Talk
1

Hey team,

I’ve recently had the opportunity to explore the new alpha builds and wanted to share some observations. I truly appreciate the ongoing efforts to make things more streamlined and user-friendly, especially for new users. Given that chat functionality is now becoming available to general users, I believe comprehensive tutorial videos would be incredibly beneficial for guiding everyone through these updates.

First, let’s consider users who have already established multiple spaces, shared them with others, and integrated their workflows into Anytype. If they wish to utilize the new Chat feature, the current process appears to involve either creating a new ‘Chat’ channel or backing up and restoring to the new chat space. This could potentially be an additional step or cause some confusion for existing users. It comes to mind that if this feature were an option that could be toggled on for all existing shared spaces, it might encourage wider adoption. This perspective comes from observing that the overall structure, as of 0.49.53-alpha, feels a bit disjointed in practice. Even as a dedicated Anytype user for approximately four years, I found myself a little overwhelmed initially after opening the new build. Let me elaborate a bit more.

The new sidebar and widgets

Since its release, Anytype’s sidebar has provided a straightforward approach to navigation and information display, similar to many competitors. I value the ability to pin items for quick access and display queries or collections, and I think this approach is excellent. However, with the new build, while my previous setup is still possible, certain aspects have shifted. I’m not suggesting it’s problematic, but I’m finding it challenging to fully understand the intended benefits of this change from my workflow perspective. For instance, it seems that if we want to have multiple items pinned, we now need to create a collection for them. The old ‘Pinned’ section is still present, but it appears to be in a transition phase. I’m currently finding it hard to discern how this revised approach offers an improvement over the previous system. For me, the key advantage of the revamped sidebar was the ability to display different views of queries and collections at a glance, which was brilliant. For example, I had my tasks organized by priority and quick access to my watchlist and reading list.

Now, there’s also an ‘object’ section. While I can collapse it, from a UX standpoint, this approach feels less optimized for my use case. With over 60 types, having them displayed in my sidebar with relatively large icons is not contributing to my efficiency, especially since all types are accessible via the space settings. Furthermore, each time I click on an object type, it takes over the full sidebar, and upon returning, the scroll position isn’t remembered, requiring me to manually scroll back down. Again, I’m finding it difficult to see the practical utility of displaying all types in the sidebar below pinned items. Pinned items are personal choices, reflecting individual preferences for order and content. In my opinion, having all objects displayed there consumes valuable sidebar real estate. Additionally, it appears the appearance options for widgets within the objects section are not functioning, which I presume is a bug.

The new RIGHT sidebar

I appreciate the concept of a contextualized right sidebar that displays different information based on the object, but its current implementation feels quite distinct. In a normal space, we have our left sidebar, with the right sidebar optionally showing properties and the table of contents. This has worked well, and I’ve previously advocated for features like a local graph view alongside properties in the right sidebar. However, the experience for ‘Chats’ is different. Not only is the right sidebar replaced by the Vault, but the right sidebar in ‘Chats’ doesn’t function as a variation of the left sidebar we use in normal spaces. This feels like a significant shift in behavior. My immediate question is whether maintaining a consistent sidebar position when moving across spaces and chats might offer a more streamlined experience. Currently, when I need to edit object properties, it replaces the primary sidebar, which means I temporarily lose quick navigation access. I then have to close the properties menu to regain access to my widgets and navigation.

Even as a dedicated Anytype user who spends a significant portion of my day in the application, I found navigating these changes presented a learning curve. This leads me to consider the potential experience for newcomers and those just starting with Anytype.

Expansion of Chat Features

I’m unsure if it’s on the roadmap, but it would be an incredible enhancement, significantly elevating the Anytype experience, if we could incorporate block-level commenting and suggesting, similar to what’s available in platforms like Notion. This would empower us to collaborate effectively not only on objects generally but on specific parts of an object while keeping conversations distinct. Currently, if I want to comment on a specific part of an object, the comment appears in the main chat for everyone, and I can’t directly mention specific objects. Enhancing this functionality could significantly improve convenience for targeted discussions.I really hope the team considers this and maybe put it on the roadmap.

Last but not least, I liked the idea behind the yellow logo! I hope with a couple of tweaks, we can all enjoy the new Anytype Logo! Also, the new 4-page introduction to ‘Chat’ with its green color was really gorgeous.

Cheers!

@anton @Razor @sharipova

2

It’s a very thoughtful feedback and I concur with mosts of your points

New objects toggle on the side made me realize how much I miss the old full-window library. It was very comfortable to see everything at a glance. I feel that none of the later versions (All objects on the top…) ever matched that usability. Some UI elements are great staying on the sidebar (like previously viewed or opened) while others feel really squeezed, opening the toggle is quite overwhelming with many objects on the space.

3

Thanks :folded_hands:.

Precisely; having a full screen view of all your types would’ve given you a clear bird’s eye view. Nowadays, I achieve a similar view by just going to the ‘Query’ which shows me all my types which I’ve made a custom query for. I still haven’t found much use in the ‘type’ view but this way, it gives a pretty easy way to see what’s what. The same goes for my Collection.

Cramming all my types and see them as a list view in the sidebar is not useful at all. From the UX standpoint, I don’t believe it adds much value.

4

Thank you for taking time and writing all of these.

totally agree with you, but there are some constants. first, we’ll add chats into spaces so you can have multiple chats — that’s coming in the next release. second, the chat format will stay free: unlimited collaborators, unlimited chats. spaces remain paid. these are two different formats, meant for different use. there’s no easy way to convert one into the other without opening room for abuse. so for now you either take these extra steps or wait until multi-chats are launched. i agree it’s not fully consistent, but we don’t want to delay the chat format launch until multi-chats are ready. would you postpone the launch until it all feels more consistent?

i understand, but this change came after proper user research and is meant to solve key problems for newcomers. you can read the discussion here:
https://community.anytype.io/t/0-49-42-alpha-interesting-ui-changes/28807/3

keeping it as is could kill the company: most new users are confused by the current sidebar, and we lose 70% on day one — not because of bugs, but because they don’t get the sidebar. the way we handle pins is one of the reasons.

the right sidebar isn’t core to the chat format — it’s just an extra way to view contents. on mobile, when you open a chat, you see a chat, not widgets. desktop is similar: when you use chats, you expect to see a chat, and it’s better to switch directly between them than add another click. the real confusion comes from reusing almost the same elements from the left sidebar in the right one. we’re fixing this — spaces and chats will soon look and work differently. if you work heavily with objects, a space is still the better choice.

for sure, commenting and suggesting are coming.

we feel it’s too early for this change — we don’t like it enough yet. you can follow other discussions on the forum about it.

given all this, would you launch as is, or wait for a more complete version? how big is the risk of making our current audience really unhappy?

5

Not my place to tell you what is good or bad, nor go against “user research”, but I do miss that vertical icon spaces bar.

Not complaining that the current is bad, but it was a good thing, that was well done.

The “mantra” of open source is “release early, release often”. But although Anytype is “Open Source”, don’t really know if it follows that “mantra”.
But it is always better to get feedback, even if negative, quickly and iterate also quickly, then spending all the time on “perfection”.

Having said that, you have the bottom line of your company to think about, so you should and know better than I do.

6

Would it be possible to hide the chats type (for multi-chats in spaces) in a space? because it’s not feature complete and mostly not working, it will confuse users if they stumble upon it.

7

they are visible now only for those who made system objects visible

8

My pleasure :smiling_face:

That’s interesting :thinking:. I didn’t know there’s going to be 2 chat formats, an independent one which will remain free and the other one in the existing multiplayer spaces which is going to be a paid version. Sure, this way I guess logic says to launch the feature that you have ready rather than wait. But I guess the confusion will be there still. Explaining to new users or even the ones that recently joined the difference between chat and a normal space won’t be easy.

But just out of curiosity, the additional step and confusion aside, what should keep people to go the extra step and export and import their whole shared space into a new chat channel and remain free rather than spend on having the chat in their existing space? :thinking:

That’s very strange :thinking:. Of course you guys have more data than someone like me, but given that Notion and Obsidian are the most famous competitors for Anytype, and given that both of them use pins like the ones Anytype use, it’s baffling for me that new users would be confused by pinning their objects :thinking:. If anything, what differentiate Anytype with others is the ability to display different views on the sidebar for queries which can’t be found elsewhere :thinking:.

Just to share a little bit of my experience, I tried to bring a lot of families and friends over to Anytype. And by far the no. 1 source of difficulty and confusion for them was to introduce and later convince them to use ‘types’ and then queries/collection. They had a hard time organizing their thoughts into different types rather than work with a simple ‘page’ let’s say. I haven’t seen any of them struggle with the sidebar :thinking:. In fact, the funny thing is that they mainly use the sidebar as a way to pin the object for quick access.

Based on what you guys apparently have visioned for chats, I guess it might make sense in future releases. For me, I preferred navigation and sidebar to remain on the right side and utilize the left one for other purposes.

Awesome! I’ve had problems recently with Notion with regards to the random disconnects I was getting when I was teaching. If Anytype had commenting + the ability to limit access of people to certain objects within a shared space, I would’ve happily switched to Anytype within seconds :sweat_smile:.

It’s hard to say but I guess new users won’t have an easy time adapting to this change. I guess, for someone who’s already using the multiplayer feature in the form of a shared space, backing their current space, exporting it and importing it into a new space and then inviting everyone there wouldn’t be a pleasant task. Especially if people are already on Anytype and are working in their space.

9

I feel this too. The Primitives development solved it by making types more relevant and useful, though.

Yeah, just yesterday I was replying in the capacities reddit “subreddit”, to a comment of a user that switched from capacities to Anytype, and the user’s praise was the sidebar.

10

Exactly! The ability to manipulate objects from the type level created a clear distinction as to how it could be used!

11

There’s 3 different users that have very different needs

  • current users of Anytype
    We are used to a certain way of doing things in Anytype, and will be frustrated (for a time) whenever a new release changes the UI or our workflows
  • users who are familiar with apps like Notion and Obsidian
    Anytype seems familiar, but actually works very different, so takes more effort to understand
  • users who only know apps like Microsoft Word and Google Docs
    Anytype can seem complicated, unless features are compared to these mainstream apps and file explorers

If the goal is to get a lot of new users, it makes sense to focus on the last 2 groups. Older users of Anytype will either stay because they believe in the app and are very patient and adaptable to the constant changes, or they will leave because they are losing time and money due to the constant changes.

No one can please all the groups, so it’s not a question of should the update wait. But more of who is more important for the goals of the Anytype team. Is the goal to get many new free users? Many paid users? Many ambassadors of Anytype, who will try to convert everyone they meet to use this life-changing app?

12

So much!
I really don’t understand this result.
Here, the widgets (and the ability to have a list of favorites) were clearly one of the arguments for coming to Anytype (the refusals were related to other points).
Some of the audience was indeed used to Notion (including a child), but not all of them.
Some of the audience had never used a note-taking tool (or OneNote for some, the worst!) and they are not tech-savvy, but again, the favorites and widgets appealed to them.
I’m curious to know which profiles are bothered by this. I guess we all have our specific circles.

13

@Shampra you write as if widgets are a thing of the past. as I can see the current alpha only changes how pinned objects are handled and that types are widgets by default now below.

The most important change for new users is the types widget thing. The big types based competitor also has this and it makes newcomers (to this paradigm of storing information) understand the concept better. They immediately see where their books, human, notes and pages are. It’s not only the notion users but also people who are new to all this.

14

Not wrong :grin:.
To clarify: people liked the widgets as they were (apart from a few minor flaws), and they liked the favorites feature. I haven’t tried to “sell” Anytype again for a while. I have a list of sticking points that I’m keeping an eye on (my own and those I’ve noted for my professional and personal contacts), but I hope to try again someday.
And I hope that the widgets and favorites will be just as popular when I do it again…

15

I totally agree that not just Anytype but any app can try to please everyone but my aim of creating this post wasn’t just to complain because I don’t like change; quite the opposite actually. I love meaningful changes which add value to the day to day user experience.

My point was mainly two-fold:

  1. I believe having all the types accessible via a scroll in the sidebar will add to the confusion not lesson it; especially for new users. I believe having a birds eye view of all the types, at least the 20 of them which will be present for new users would greatly soften their experience but more importantly, Anytype needs far greater and more comprehensive ‘onboarding tutorials, video, showcases’. I really don’t think the pop-up messages that greet the new users would do much for them in order for them to comprehend what’s going on.

  2. My second point is that having consistency with how sidebar works and its position would give stability to new users. The sidebar being on the right for spaces and left for chats is a little bit confusing IMO.

I’ve said it before, and will say it again. I believe what Capacities has done with explaining their different features, and creating videos showcasing different workflows is a necessity for Anytype. I follow your channel, and I think it’s a great help for new users! I hope the team would focus on such approach more. Or even what Raycast is doing, talk to the community in their videos; explain what’s going on in their minds, tell the community that they’ve heard them and what is on the roadmap.

16

You are kind right. But what you’re saying is kind of temporary. Sure, Capacities does something the same. For new-comers, seeing their types and the few ones they’ve created in the first days of using the app is helpful but do you think it would remain helpful after one month? on year? When the number of your types grow and you create many objects within a type, I don’t think sidebar would be useful anymore as it can’t show you the information it shows at a glance.

I believe the genius of Anytype’s sidebar relies on how fast it can show you your data and information. When you start creating custom views in your types and queries/collection and then decide to have them accessible and visible to you in the sidebar.

17

they have done some nice videos in the beginning, when they started their channel. but it did not age well because anytype changes too often in fundamental UI ways. Until they reach a stable state it could be a big burden to keep up with it :sweat_smile:

18

Spot on! Back in the day, @Charlotte used to be a vocal and active part of the team and her videos, and even the use-cases which are present in the gallery was a brilliant source of information for people.

But you’re right. Anytype has changed drastically since then, especially at first glance. But I believe the core fundamentals and structure of Anytype has stabilized, especially since the Primitive update.

19

Exactly my opinion!

I can give my examples, based on my opinion of course, but:

  • Logseq: Although good app, for sure, like obsidian, I believe what made it so popular was the “community”, developing plugins and always talking about it and comparing it to Obsidian “killer”. And Logseq is an extremely complicated software for beginners. When I started this PKM journey, I was certainly influenced by those tutorials and videos. And the weirdest thing happens: if the software needs learning to use, by learning it, I become attached to it.
  • Capacities: It does extremely well done videos, I really admire that lady that presents their tutorials, very well done.
  • Obsidian: I will use their example of the bases development as a point. If I had a penny for every reddit comment of users saying they bought the insider license just to test out bases, I would have a bunch of pennies. The irony of it all, bases are a limited dataview, and Anytype have done bases years ago!

Anytype should (deservedly) to be everywhere, videos, tutorials, advanced complicated tutorials where users go “OMG I can’t live without types!!!”, etc.
Anytype could to do like Obsidian’s bases development:

  • “Tags as Objects” ARE COMING!!
  • Created branch “Tags as Objects”, users prepare…
  • "We have the first object called Tags!!!
  • etc etc etc..

If we recall, bases development took months, but Obsidian “marketed it” from the beginning and non stop. (actually, not only Obsidian but also its community).

Exactly. I believe that the only change “to users” was that before there were specific/pre-made cases of widgets available. Now they are generic and done through a system. Can help if when creating a new space there is already a “Recently Opened” query done.
An onboarding showing how to put that pre-made “Recently Opened” query into a pinned widget would also help.

Anytype used to do this on the town halls. Unfortunately it stopped. If time is a constraint, maybe some “smaller town halls” with not the whole team, but just either anton or filip to give and get community feedback in realtime.

Kudos for the conversation, very spot on (in my opinion) and constructive.

EDIT:
My main issue with the new sidebar are that the object list (as with properties on the right sidebar) are … IMHO (I stress this, my opinion) … ugly and take huge space. I don’t really get it, because Anytype has some nice list widgets. But an improvement in visual presentation of the objects and properties would be great.

20

Thanks, now I know what’s coming :slight_smile: .

Still, I want to party-poop a little bit again: Some pretty fundamental issues are still unsolved, and I worry that features like “Chat” (which usually are a deep black hole of effort) will lead to fundamental features constantly being “a little bit broken”. I would truly have expected at least the first one being fixed during this “summer of bug fixing”.

That would suck. And I hope I’m wrong.